So Falling Through The Generation Gap is, as of this posting, officially the number one Google result for "diquility". That's fairly impressive, considering the term is used in a lot of discussions of AT; I suppose it's that we're probably the only site that actually uses the term repeatedly and often, rather than simply mentioning it in passing.
I'm quite heartened by this, not because I specifically want traffic, but rather because I like to imagine that if there were Reyvateils out there searching for info on Diquility, they'd be able to find helpful advice straight away; and also, if people are searching for generic info on the world of AT and the first thing they find is something that treats that world as a real, meaningful place... that's really awesome, and I'm quite honoured that I could have been responsible for that.
We're also, incidentally, the first result for "reyvateil rights" (in quotes); sadly enough, though, my writings here and on my other blogs seem to be the only results for that query. A shame that no one else has considered the concept worthy of serious discussion, especially since there are such obvious parallels with the oppression of various groups in our own world throughout history. I suppose AT's a small fandom, but still, I think there's a lot of potentially enlightening elaboration to be had there, which is why Falling Through The Generation Gap exists. I hope, through it, more fans can be brought around to seriously thinking about the rights of Reyvateils when they enter that world; I think it's an issue that, if you're at all a fan of the Reyvateil characters (or even if you aren't, but especially if you are), deserves some serious thought.
Speaking of FTTGG (or the Reyvablog, as its players fondly refer to it), I'd like to re-promote this particular link and see if I can't get a few of you to spread it around. It's presented from an in-game perspective, but it was written with a dual purpose: as well as making the players aware of many of the unfair ways in which Reyvateils are treated day-to-day on the streets and in the media, it also contains a message to those of us in this world, about how the characters people idolise might feel about artwork that shows them being degraded and humiliated.
If you sympathise with a fictional character and feel uncomfortable with the way a lot of artwork treats them as objects, and want to encourage other people to reflect, for a moment, on whether the characters they love would really want people thinking of them in that way, I encourage you to link to this entry if you can. It's not about being anti-porn; I'm quite fine with the existence of works that portray sexualised situations for the purposes of other people's pleasure. I just don't like that images that specifically degrade and brutalise characters are becoming widespread and even normative, because I don't like seeing the characters I love portrayed that way and I don't like thinking that others are becoming desensitised to the idea of their casual mistreatment. If you think the same way, linking to this campaign is one way to raise your voice in harmony. It may make someone think twice.
Letra - Eldharia ~Inori Saku Mori~
2 months ago
22 comments:
Even if I haven't posted on the other blog, I have to say that you have done an excellent job showing how the Reyvateils are treated in Sol Ciel, including all the burdens they have to bear just with that.
However, that being said, I think you will be in for some surprises for when you see the treatment and relationship they have to humans in Metafalss, and in the third tower (of the latter one, I have heard that the Reyvateil <-> Human relationships are the total opposites of the ones in Sol Ciel, in question of who has the dominance and abuses of the other side).
It's not really related to this post, but you did say OOC comments should go here...
From the myths post:
"It can only be passed down from a mother who is a Reyvateil"
I kind of wonder about this one. The mini-artbook does say that third generations are "Children born between Reyvateils and Human". But given that there was apparently a large population of Reyvateils before diquility was invented... I'm not sure, it just doesn't seem to fit together. It didn't sound to me like there were supposed to be that many betas running around...
There are only two living betas currently: Misha and Mir, because all the others died because their lifespans were used up, and no other betas were made except for filling the role as the Hoshiyomi.
And I think we are forgetting that, even if males can't be Reyvateils, they can be bearers for their genes if they had a Reyvateil somewhere in their family story.
And I think we are forgetting that, even if males can't be Reyvateils, they can be bearers for their genes if they had a Reyvateil somewhere in their family story.
Hmm, I didn't actually know that. Where is that said? As winters (hi, new commenter!) said, it says in the US artbook that Third Generations are children of Reyvateils and humans, which I assume means directly.
And re: the population, it seems odd, but maybe they really did just make a lot of Betas back then, for various reasons? Maybe a lot of rich people got a Beta made instead of having a kid, or something like that?
And I think we are forgetting that, even if males can't be Reyvateils, they can be bearers for their genes if they had a Reyvateil somewhere in their family story.
Interesting~ Can males pass the gene onto other males, as well, even if it doesn't have an effect on them? Or rather, would it work like the opposite of this diagram?
The chain would be broken by the first son who doesn't carry the gene, so the family line would either have to be incredibly lucky or fairly consistent in starting families with a Reyvateil partner to prevent the population from declining sharply.
Both cases seem to be feasible. Reyvateils might have been loved more commonly back when their condition was thought to be a disease rather than a difference in species. The Reyvateil population in Sol Ciel is also said to be significantly lower than it was in the past.
so the family line would either have to be incredibly lucky or fairly consistent in starting families with a Reyvateil partner to prevent the population from declining sharply.
Oh, good grief, chromosomal inheritance. *is all rusty from not having studied this for years* Presumably even if it declined sharply, though, it would still continue to happen at a steady rate thereafter? Or something? Being that chromosome-linked disorders do still happen, and don't die out, and things.... Somebody be my science teacher here?
The Reyvateil population in Sol Ciel is also said to be significantly lower than it was in the past.
*AR pops over from Reyvablog*
...mostly because untold numbers of us are being left to die in slums and in prisons, most likely.
*slinks off back behind the fourth wall*
More like the exact same as that diagram (daughters can be either Reyvateils or bearers of the RT genes, while males are always normal but bearers of these genes, and yes, they can pass that gene to other males, but then, since the gene weakens with each generation, it makes less probable to have a RT daughter if there is a big difference between generations).
And about mistreatment, wait until you see how the IPDs are treated in Metafalss... (I tell you, it isn't pretty...)
And as I said before, you are in for a surprise when you learn about how are the relationships between humans and Reyvateils in Tylia's tower.
^Oops, yes; I meant that is the opposite of the diagram you put up, Deciare.
First of all, Ayulsa, congratulations on this accomplishment. I also find your efforts inspiring, even if I don't participate in FTTGG.
(of the latter one, I have heard that the Reyvateil <-> Human relationships are the total opposites of the ones in Sol Ciel, in question of who has the dominance and abuses of the other side).
The creators of AT amaze me again with the amount of work they put into their worldbuilding. I really like how even though all three regions comprise the same species, the social hierarchy isn't uniform throughout due to other factors.
(daughters can be either Reyvateils or bearers of the RT genes, while males are always normal but bearers of these genes, and yes, they can pass that gene to other males, but then, since the gene weakens with each generation, it makes less probable to have a RT daughter if there is a big difference between generations).
That's interesting. I didn’t know genes could vary in terms of strength. Then again, my biology is pretty rusty as well.
[It's loooong comment time?]
(Ayulsa)
"And re: the population, it seems odd, but maybe they really did just make a lot of Betas back then, for various reasons?"
After thinking about it some more, it seems like that would have to have been it. Looking at the timeline it says for 3341 "Reyvateil to Human ratio exceeds 30%." It wouldn't make sense for them to be third generations, because the description suggests that for a long time they didn't *know* that the 'tattoo' was a sign of being a Reyvateil.
Though I guess that doesn't have much to do with the "Can a Reyvateil have a non-Reyvateil mother?" thing.
For that... well, I'm working under the assumption that there's a pretty significant Reyvateil population in the present of AT, based largely on that bastard Bourd. He at least seemed to *want* to be successful, and the way he wanted to do things would call for a large population of Reyvateils available.
So, lots of Reyvateils. It's not entirely clear from the timeline I've got, but it looks like there's 150-200 years between the discovery of diqulity and the present. Whether the population would have incresed or decreased over that time period is hard to say, but I don't think it would have multiplied by significant factors.
So, look at the generation alive right around the diquility line. If one has to have a Reyvateil mother to become one, than their mothers must have all been either betas or third generations. (Origins not being a significant factor for obvious reasons.)
If there's a large population of betas having children, the "Tattoolist" thing doesn't make sense. They should have known what an install port looked like, and even if they didn't know what was going on, had *some* idea that it was related to Reyvateils.
If, on the other hand, the mothers (and grandmothers, and so on) are third generations, then a lot of them would have to have been having children before they were 20, if not earlier, and sometimes multiples. And even then, the part where early deaths are running in families should have been noticable.
Ultimately, I find the disconnect between a 'tattoo' appearing and Reyvateils far more believable if the family involved is less likely to have had any direct involvement with them. Which is a lot easier if it's subject to the usual tomfoolery of genetics, without requiring a direct line.
And another thing! Since I mentioned Bourd, I've always kind of wondered about the issue of how Tenba treated Reyvateils. The section in the artbook suggests to me that the conditions for most are at least decent, even with the variations in ranking. But that's not really what it looks like in the game.
The best explaination I can think of is that all the Tenba people seen for most of the game were working in the section of the company under Bourd's control, which had basically gone rogue. It's pretty impressive that he managed to keep it from Ayano though, given what are supposed to be her skills. (Misha presumably had her own reasons for not speaking up when the three of them were together, but still.)
The worldbuilding in Ar tonelico is impressive, but there's still a lot of parts I have a hard time figuring out with the material that's available in english...
And shame I'm somewhat busy right now with translating the composition comments (and starting up again with helping Dexas with his manga translation), so I don't think I'll be able to begin translating the Settei book for the time being...
BTW, winters... did you forgot that a lot of people died too when the right wing of Horus fell to the Sea of Death?
Probably the Third Gen Reyvateils that we know were orphaned children from the Betas that fought in the virus war (and I think it's easy to say that the biggest part of them died in the war, were killed by genocidal reasons, or were just living in the right wing of Horus and couldn't get out of there before it fell; since it has been stated that Neo Elemia was on that wing, while the left wing was just a countryside region that didn't know almost anything that happened there).
(aquagon)
"BTW, winters... did you forgot that a lot of people died too when the right wing of Horus fell to the Sea of Death?
"
No. And I'm not sure I understand why you bring it up...
It looks like 100-150 years passed between the wing falling and the discovery of diquility, which still seems like enough generations for patterns to become noticable. Though that might make the disconnect between that and Reyvateils a bit more reasonable.
I still can't imagine that, given a pattern like that, there wouldn't be girls who would decide that it'd be a bad idea to try to have children when a) any daughters they had would have a high probability of dying young, and b) they themselves were going to die young. People in RL with genetic disorders go through the same sort of thing.
I just brought it up because I thought that it could be the cause of only two Betas still living (and there are other events in the AT2 timeline that I could bring up, such as the exact date and place of discovery of the Diquility, together with who made it for the first time (it wasn't no one from Tenba), however, I'm not doing so because these are really BIG spoilers for the AT2 storyline; in special these ones about the Diquility).
Though I agree that it's odd that no one recognized the Reyvateils during so much time, and brushed it off as only a genetic disorder...
Huh. Well, you can hardly blame me for thinking the information in the artbook is accurate...
(Though I guess what you're describing wouldn't actually contradict what it says, depending on the timing and interpretation. And for this discussion it might be more important to look at when it becomes available in useful quantites anyway.)
I'm not saying that the info from the artbook isn't accurate, just saying that in the other region, things went in a very different direction: they discovered the Diquility first, won against Elemia in a war using their own hymn crystal against them (the Purger), and furthermore, they never forgot what Reyvateils were, thanks to the legend of Metafalica, the Holy Maiden (or Priestess), and the IPD menace.
Though oddly enough, the Elemians that returned from the Metafalss war never conveyed that info to anyone in Sol Ciel... (And that's all I can tell without giving in game-breaking spoilers).
Actually, aquagon, those were spoilers, IMHO. Please be careful with this information, as I've now had to make this thread offlimits to one of my friends who doesn't want to read spoilers (and I wasn't sure I wanted to know that either).
Ok, sorry for that, Ayulsa... Though I didn't thought that these were spoilers when I posted them...
It's okay, just letting you know. I guess I'm a bit more cagey about knowing background details than most, because I like to find them out myself. But no worries. :)
I've got another side question...
When is FTTGG supposed to "take place" relative to AT1?
If I'm not mistaken, it takes place in the year 3771, several months after the Phase 3 conclusion to AT1. Time flows relative to this world, and one day here is one day there.
Yep, Deciare's exactly right. Note the dates on the newspaper articles for comparison.
It's timed so that hopefully by the time AT2 happens, I'll have all the AT2ish information filed away.
Well, that's good. It means something I wrote actually relates to a meaningful event, anyway.
IC-winters is actually getting hoist by her own petard here... She's a bit torqued about people assuming she's a human, but she'd be betraying her principles by lying about it, is apparently too much of a rabid individualist to throw doubt in the other direction, and still too paranoid to tell the truth.
*Image of IC-winters repeatedly hitting author-winters with a wrench goes here*
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