Tuesday 27 January 2009

interesting townsperson dialogue in AT2

(Overheard)

Sacred Army Knight: I want to marry her.
Noble Lady: We don't want to mix the blood of Reyvateil in our family, you know?
Sacred Army Knight: Don't treat her like a fool! You don't even know if Reyvateil is hereditary.
Noble Lady: We're a royal family. I just don't want people to know...
Noble Lady: I know Reyvateils are very intelligent people. I know... but...
Sacred Army Knight: Intelligence is all that matters now. Royalty doesn't matter!
Sacred Army Knight: What is so bad about being with someone I fight with...
Noble Lady: I'm just worried about you.

(When spoken to)
Sacred Army Knight: Reyvateil partners are very important to us.
Noble Lady: My son hasn't gotten promoted yet. Maybe there is a problem with his Reyvateil partner.


I just thought this was terribly interesting in that it's a little snapshot into the prejudices inherent in society in that world, even in the supposedly tolerant Metafalss....

20 comments:

Anonymous said...

This dialog leaves me very confused as to how the translator thought "Reyvateil" should be pluralised, and what other parts of speech it can serve as ("Reyvateil is hereditary"-- isn't this adjectival, as in "the quality of being a Reyvateil"?)

Ayulsa said...

I believe that "Reyvateil" was the original plural, if only because Japan doesn't distinguish between singular and plural forms. I think AT1 might have also favoured "Reyvateil", but the sloppy translation produced inconsistencies. I personally like Reyvateil as a plural, but for some reason I ended up using Reyvateils and it stuck.

As for the adjectival form, I strongly suspect that this is the result of there being no good word for "the quality of being a Reyvateil" given in the original, and the translators not being terribly good at making creative wordplay sound smooth. I'd be curious to see what the original dialogue was here. (The conversation is at the Rakshek Inn in Phase 3, if anyone wants to transcribe it from the Japanese.)

Anonymous said...

I don't think "it wasn't originally written with a plural ending because it was written in Japanese" is an all-encompassing reason for a word to buck the typical pluralisation rule when translated. Isn't that a rather literal way to look at it? If every loanword must follow the pattern of the original language, then where do people get off saying that "agenda" can be used as singular, or, for that matter, that Second Life is full of "nekos"? It's very inconsistent.

I just think this dialog ought to have been consistent within itself; surely in "the blood of Reyvateil" the noblewoman is trying to use "Reyvateil" as a plural noun, else she would have said "Reyvateil blood", which she didn't despite indicating elsewhere that using "Reyvateil" as an adjective is fine. Rrgh.

Why yes, I am nitpicking about a tiny error in AT2. Sometimes it's less fun to pick the nits I've already picked a million times before or the really obvious nits than to pick out a new one.

Ayulsa said...

I don't think "it wasn't originally written with a plural ending because it was written in Japanese" is an all-encompassing reason for a word to buck the typical pluralisation rule when translated.

Oh, I agree. My point was more that it was never going to be "Reyvateils" in Japanese, because that construction simply would not exist. "Reyvateils" and "Reyvateil" are equally legitimate ways to pluralise the word by the rules of English. For the record, I like Reyvateil as a plural more because of aesthetics than because it's accurate to the Japanese-- although if you want to ask "what did the game's creators originally intend for it to be", the answer is going to be "Reyvateil", though only because Japanese wouldn't have thought of creative (or even uncreative) pluralisations because they don't generally change words on pluralising.

...which wasn't really much of a point at all, when it comes down to it. XD But still.

And yes, it is glaringly obvious that they weren't even consistent within their own dialogue. It's just an awful translation, in general.

Anonymous said...

Hmm... I suspect that the game's creators, if asked about how someone should pluralise it in English, would probably say, "Eeto..." and try to remember their high school English classes. And then they would attempt to properly pluralise it the way they learned to pluralise things in English class, and they would say "Reyvateils", or possibly "Chotto matte... eigo wa muzukashii da yo..." or something. Possibly with better grammar than mine.

Anonymous said...

(And my first post was lost due to openid messing up. x.x )

I'm not sure this isn't more an example of one person with an issue than a society with those problems. The son certainly didn't hesitate to argue about it.

I don't get the "hereditary" thing though. I can't think of any way to interpret that which makes any sense whatsoever, given the hundreds of years Reyvateils have been around...

Personally, I found Sonia's geneology to be rather interesting...

Ayulsa said...

I guess since it doesn't always inherit, and the average citizen maybe doesn't have that much scientific knowledge, or anything? People in Metafalss don't seem to go to school because of the government, so it's reasonable to assume they'd be pretty ignorant on a lot of basic topics that we'd expect someone in an equivalent this-world society to know.

Anonymous said...

@winters: I don't think I've learned Sonia's genealogy yet. I figured you'd find Amarie's interesting, at least.

Incidentally, I was saying that to Ayulsa (that I thought you'd like Amarie's background), and I found myself confused as to whether you're a he or a she or neither or both or what. Enlighten me?

Anonymous said...

"We don't want to mix the blood of Reyvateil in our family"
"You don't even know if Reyvateil is hereditary."

Given the two statements above, presuming that they meant to use the word "Reyvateil" the same way, I'd substitute "Reyvatelism" or "Reyvateilianism" into it...

Reyvatelism sounds like a medical term, like autism or metabolism... And Reyvatelianism sounds like a religion or philosophy. XD I quite like the tenets of Reyvatelianism as I have come to understand them. ^_^ It's so nice that few people ever seem to disseminate Reyvatelianism... It's more of a natural inclination in their personality that becomes even stronger after awakening.

So "Reyvateil", if you think about it that way, is kind of both a genetic condition and a philosophy. To introduce Reyvateilian blood into the family is to introduce implications for the long-term decisions that may be made by that family's future leaders. To noble families with long, proud, stable histories, I can imagine how such implications might be viewed as undesirable.


I don't get the "hereditary" thing though. I can't think of any way to interpret that which makes any sense whatsoever, given the hundreds of years Reyvateils have been around...

I'm not sure I understand the question... It only takes a single mistake while assembling one's family tree to accidentally leave out a Reyvateil somewhere along the ancestral lineage, so Reyvateils might appear to be born from a family that is thought to be pureblood human... Conversely, a Reyvateil's genes who have been carried through multiple generations in a family (i.e. by sons) may not have specifically manifested in any of their daughters yet. And even if there ever was a Reyvateil in the distant past of an influential family, they might have tried to cover it up. So there may be little reliable evidence as to whether the potential for becoming a Reyvatel is hereditary.

Anonymous said...

It only takes a single mistake while assembling one's family tree to accidentally leave out a Reyvateil somewhere along the ancestral lineage

"Accidentally", hm? "Mistake". I bet a lot of people are clumsy like that in Sol Ciel at least.

Anonymous said...

If I'm remembering right, Amarie and Sonia have the interesting thing in common... except Sonia's also a Reyvateil. `.`

Sonia's everything! `.`

and I found myself confused as to whether you're a he or a she or neither or both or what. Enlighten me?

I'm everything? ^_~

Anonymous said...

In that case I'll refer to you as "they" and just pretend it's grammatically correct. =D

Ayulsa said...

winters, I had no idea you were a Teru/Reyvateil/human blend. :) (Have I missed anything out? Maybe some dragon? A soupçon of Soope?)

Also, I must say that a human/Reyvateil/Teru hybrid has got to be one really interesting person. Even a Reyvateil/Teru... what would their magic be like? Too bad I don't think IC-winters and Reyvateil partner are of the appropriate genders to find out....

Anonymous said...

In that case I'll refer to you as "they" and just pretend it's grammatically correct. =D

We could tactfully avoid using any pronoun references to winters... And I think the Japanese language has a thing where it's okay to speak directly to a person while using their name in place of a pronoun?

A soupçon of Soope?

*cracks up* Perfect! Everyone's blood should have trace amounts of soup (Soope-flavoured?) in it!

human/Reyvateil/Teru

Hmm, not that I mean to ignite any fires, but I wonder if it would be fair to say that all Reyvateils are... Biologically speaking... Um... Never mind.

Anonymous said...

I think the Japanese language makes it a bit impolite to use a second-person pronoun unless you're close to that person. I just don't want to have to construct something like, "I wonder what Winters thinks of that? Do you think Winters is at that part yet? We should ask Winters what Winters thinks." =D

And I do suspect Sonia is just the crossbreed that's being suggested here, actually.

Ayulsa said...

Hmm, not that I mean to ignite any fires, but I wonder if it would be fair to say that all Reyvateils are... Biologically speaking... Um... Never mind.

True, I suppose you could technically say they're human/Reyvateil. I wouldn't mention it on the Reyvablog, though. =D

We could always agree on a genderless pronoun. But I think "they" is fine. Even if it's currently ungrammatical, the need for it is going to eventually end up outweighing tradition anyway, and people will start accepting it as the default.

Anonymous said...

I don't think IC-winters is aware that humans and Teru are interfertile. Otherwise, some things she's said would have been different. (After all, the author didn't know it at the time... It does seem like something less likely to happen in the relevent part of the world though.)

We could tactfully avoid using any pronoun references to winters

You could do what I do, and use whichever pronoun best suits your mood... ^_~

Or just use "she", since I am playing a female character under this name. `.`

Hmm, not that I mean to ignite any fires, but I wonder if it would be fair to say that all Reyvateils are... Biologically speaking... Um... Never mind.

I keep wondering where the Teru came from anyway. It's not surprising for Reyvateils to be reproductively compatible with humans, because when the origins were created, they started with human DNA. But what's the explaination for Teru?

Ayulsa said...

I'm guessing Teru are basically just another species that co-evolved alongside humans? A lot of fantasy worlds seem to make the assumption that there've been multiple evolutionary paths that led to various sapient species.

Or they could be human crossbreeds with dragons, since we know there are dragonpeople in AT1. Except you still then have to explain how sapient dragons evolved....

Anonymous said...

Don't Teru have some kind of connection with dragons? At least, Tastiella has a shoulderdragon, and I think I remember hearing that there was some kind of connection that made that make sense...

I'm wondering whether Reisha is also from the Sonya/Amarie lineage. (On the other hand, I'm still confused as to why she knows the Fuero half of that song; it would all make a lot more sense the other way around.)

Anonymous said...

...sorry, I meant Sonia. Sonya is my cat. (Nya.)